ISKCON and Gays Part 2 - "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" and the Real World

Posted On: Thu, 2009-02-05 23:42 by sitapatiShare

Currently most of ISKCON has an unspoken "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy in relation to gays. Yes, there are gay sannyasis and other members either in official organisational positions or just participating. However, they are not allowed to come out about being gay, because this causes a disturbance by challenging fundamental socio-philosophical assumptions - witness the event reported by Giridhari das.

The default "conservative" position in ISKCON is that to "be gay" is to violate a normative standard of the organization. You don't have to "do" anything more than say "I'm gay", and you've "broken the regulative principles".

Thus, persons who are gay are welcome to participate in ISKCON as long as they remain silent about their identity and do not challenge the assertion that gayness is a behaviour, a choice, or perhaps a sickness, rather than a (temporary) identity on par with others.

Dr. Peter Singer, Senior Fellow and Director of the 21st Century Defense Initiative at the Brookings Institution [website], is a speaker at this year's TED conference, currently on in California. He has written a Foreign Policy paper for the Brookings Institute entitled "How the Real World ended Don't Ask Don't Tell". Interesting reading.

A military/gay mashup right at this point in time? Krishna must be God...

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Homosexuals are born that way? Prove it!

Ajit (not verified) | Fri, 2009-02-06 09:10

Dear Prabhu! Pamho, agtSP!

I've been following these texts about homosexuality. The problem is that there is absolutely no evidence in support of the idea that people are born homosexuals as both you and Giridhari Prabhu are asserting. I think you have a burden of proof here that you have not lifted.

All this so called science is usually a product of materialism and political correctness. You are not allowed to make scientific claims about differences in intelligence amongst men and women and between races. And you are also not allowed to claim that homosexuality is a mental disturbance caused by social factors. This is materialistic, relativistic, hedonistic philosophy that wants to undermine religious teachings.

Of course, anyone is allowed to practice KC, but in my opinion homosexuals should take therapy until they are cured - as quite a few homosexuals actually have been.

If you want to push this agenda then I think you have to show that homosexuals are born that way. I don't think you can.

Your servant,
Ajit Krishna Dasa

Ajita Krishna prabhu, I

sitapati | Fri, 2009-02-06 11:38

Ajita Krishna prabhu, I suggest that you look into the situation a little more. There is a lot of empirical evidence that both humans and animals are born homosexual.

(Check out the gay penguins in the US, China, and Chermany)

In my own experience I've seen devotees who have practiced this process for 15-30 years and remain both devotees in good standing, and gay.

From my own experience of interacting with these people, and emprical studies, my understanding is that it is indeed an identity.

I have a question for you: Do you know any gay devotees personally?

From the US article

sitapati | Fri, 2009-02-06 11:45

From the US article above:

Roy and Silo are hardly unusual. Indeed, scientists have found homosexual behavior throughout the animal world.

This growing body of science has been increasingly drawn into charged debates about homosexuality in American society, on subjects from gay marriage to sodomy laws, despite reluctance from experts in the field to extrapolate from animals to humans. Gay groups argue that if homosexual behavior occurs in animals, it is natural, and therefore the rights of homosexuals should be protected. On the other hand, some conservative religious groups have condemned the same practices in the past, calling them "animalistic."

But if homosexuality occurs among animals, does that necessarily mean it is natural for humans? And that raises a familiar question: If homosexuality is not a choice, but a result of natural forces that cannot be controlled, can it be immoral?

The open discussion of homosexual behavior in animals is relatively new.

"There has been a certain cultural shyness about admitting it," said Frans de Waal, whose 1997 book, "Bonobo: The Forgotten Ape" (University of California Press), unleashed a torrent of discussion about animal sexuality.

Bonobos, apes closely related to humans, are wildly energetic sexually. Studies show that whether observed in the wild or in captivity, nearly all are bisexual and nearly half their sexual interactions are with the same sex. Females have been observed to engage in homosexual activity almost hourly.

Before his own book, "American scientists who investigated bonobos never discussed sex at all," said de Waal, director of the Living Links Center of the Yerkes Primate Center at Emory University in Atlanta. "Or they sometimes would show two females having sex together, and would say, 'The females are very affectionate.' "

Then in 1999, Bruce Bagemihl published "Biological Exuberance: Animal Homosexuality and Natural Diversity" (St. Martin's Press), one of the first books of its kind to provide an overview of scholarly studies of same-sex behavior in animals. Bagemihl said homosexual behavior had been documented in some 450 species.

Last summer, the book was cited by the American Psychiatric Association and other groups in a "friend of the court" brief submitted to the Supreme Court in Lawrence vs. Texas, a case challenging a Texas anti-sodomy law. The court struck down the law.

In his book, Bagemihl describes homosexual activity in a broad spectrum of animals. He asserts that while same-sex behavior is sometimes found in captivity, it is actually seen more frequently in studies of animals in the wild.

Among birds, for instance, studies show that 10 to 15 percent of female western gulls in some populations in the wild are homosexual. Among mammals, male and female bottlenose dolphins frequently engage in homosexual activity, both in captivity and in the wild. Homosexuality is particularly common among young male dolphin calves. One male may protect another that is resting or healing from wounds inflicted by a predator. When one partner dies, the other may search for a new male mate.

Male and female rhesus macaques, a type of monkey, also exhibit homosexuality in captivity and in the wild. Males are affectionate to each other, touching, holding and embracing. Females smack their lips at each other and play games like hide-and-seek, peekaboo and follow the leader. And both sexes mount members of their own sex.