Causelessmercy - Room Conversation Varnasrama System Must Be Introduced February 14, 1977, Mayapur
Room Conversation
Varṇāśrama System
Must Be Introduced
February 14, 1977, Māyāpura
770214r2.may
Satsvarūpa:
thought they were suppressed.
Prabhupāda: Revolution means they are dissatisfied.
Satsvarūpa: French Revolution, Russian Revolution.
Prabhupāda: These things were not going nicely. Therefore
gradually it broke. But if things are going nicely, people will be
happy. They will not revolt. You have to keep the citizens satisfied in
all respects. You must know the necessity how people are satisfied.
You have to arrange the government in that way. Then there will be
no revolution. Mass of people, if they are satisfied, they will not
revolt. But they do not know the process. The demoncracy, the
common man is allowed to vote. He has no knowledge and hes
voting. This is most condemned process. Camara-bhangi, a
sweeper, he is voted to become Minister of Defense. His business is
to cleanse the street, and now hes voted to become because he has
got number of votes. So many bhangis, they vote, Yes, he is our
leader. He should be Defense Minister. You have to do that. This is
democracy. His business is to sweep, and hes voted a defense
minister.
Hari-śauri: But in, say in America, they argue that everybodys
educated now. In America
Prabhupāda: What educated? Educated means hippies. Thats all.
This is their education. They do not know what is meant by
education. Education
University student was informed that Next
birth you may become a dog, so he said, What is the wrong there?
This is education. Is that education, that he agrees to become a dog
very happily? There is no education. Simply waste of time.
Satsvarūpa: But at least if there is extreme exploitation by a king or
dictator it cant be changed. But the people
Prabhupāda: There cannot be exploitation if things are made in
order. Just like kṣatriya should be trained up as kṣatriya. Then he is
king. Not that a bhangi by vote becomes a king. This is education.
śauryaṁ tejo dhṛtir dākṣyaṁ
yuddhe cāpy apalāyanam
dānam īśvara-bhāvaś ca
kṣātraṁ karma svabhāva-jam
[Bg. 18.43]
He must be very powerful, very strong, strongly built. You have seen
the picture, Rāmacandra? Sturdy body. You see. Lakṣmaṇa. Because
kṣatriya. They should be trained up as kṣatriya. Therefore the
varṇāśrama college is required to train people who is able to
become a brāhmaṇa, who is able to become a kṣatriya, who is able
to become
In this way division must be. And according to the
quality and work there must be division for cooperation. There is a
big scheme. They have lost. They do not know. All bhangis, camara,
śūdras, they are simply given vote. Thats all. Where is the training?
Hari-śauri: But what is the use of having big strong body if now
theyre using airplanes and tanks and guns.
Prabhupāda: That is your useless waste of time. Why? Therefore the
war does not stop, unnecessary war, and such a big war, Kurukṣetra,
in eighteen days it is finished. This is decision. And this is going on,
continually war, strain, politics, diplomacy, lecture, Parliament.
There is no finishing of war. There is no finishing. It will go on. Just
like same example: If you keep the dogs as dogs, theyll going on
barking. It will never finish. So this is the civilization of dog work. It
is not human civilization. Therefore it is going on. War is not
stopped. Where is stop? War is stopped? No. Going on. And it will go
on because they are dogs. You cannot stop their barking. There are
so many things. If we follow the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā, then
whole world will be
This is a fact. Now, how to implement it, that
is another thing. It is a fact.
Hari-śauri: Because even the yavanas and mlecchas were following
the kṣatriya system in Kṛṣṇas time. Just like Jarāsandha. He had all
the chivalrous respect of a kṣatriya even though he was a demon.
But nowadays everybodys
No one is
Prabhupāda: Everybodys śūdra. Nobodys brāhmaṇa, nobodys
Hari-śauri: No.
Prabhupāda: Śūdra is to be controlled only. They are never given to
be freedom. Just like in America. The blacks were slaves. They were
under control. And since you have given them equal rights they are
disturbing, most disturbing, always creating a fearful situation,
uncultured and drunkards. What training they have got? They have
got equal right? That is best, to keep them under control as slaves
but give them sufficient food, sufficient cloth, not more than that.
Then they will be satisfied.
Hari-śauri: If thats done then how will those who have some
potential to be educated, how will we recognize them?
Prabhupāda: Either educate them or control them. Give them facility
of education. But there is no education at all. Even for the whites
there is no education. So we are stressing on the point of education.
You educate certain section as brāhmaṇa, certain section as
kṣatriya, certain section as vaiśya. In that education we dont
discriminate because hes coming of a śūdra family. Take education.
Be qualified. Then you talk. Not by votes.
Satsvarūpa: Lord Caitanya, when Rāmānanda Rāya brought this up
He said it was not possible in this age to introduce this.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Not
He did not say possible. Ihā bāhya. Caitanya
Mahāprabhu was interested only on the spiritual platform. He had
no idea of material side. He rejected material side.
Satsvarūpa: But dont we do that also?
Prabhupāda: No. Our position is different. We are trying to
implement Kṛṣṇa consciousness in everything. And Caitanya
Mahāprabhu personally took sannyāsa. He rejected completely
material. Niṣkiñcana. But we are not going to be niṣkiñcana. We are
trying to cement the troubled position of the
That is also in the
prescription of Bhagavad-gītā. We are not rejecting the whole
society. Caitanya Mahāprabhu rejected everything, ihā bāhya.
Rejected meaning, I do not take much interest in this. Bāhya. It is
external. He was simply interested in the internal, the spiritual. But
our duty is that we shall arrange the external affairs also so nicely
that one day they will come to the spiritual platform very easily,
paving the way. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu, personality like that,
they have nothing to do with this material world. But we are
preaching. We are preaching. Therefore we must pave the situation
in such a way that gradually they will be promoted to the spiritual
plane, which is not required.
Satsvarūpa: Varṇāśrama is not required.
Prabhupāda: Not required. Caitanya Mahāprabhu denied, I am not
brāhmaṇa, I am not kṣatriya, I am not this, I am not this. He
rejected. But in the Bhagavad-gītā, the cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam
[Bg. 4.13] So we are Kṛṣṇa
, preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It
must be done.
Hari-śauri: But in Caitanya Mahāprabhus practical preaching He
only induced them to chant.
Prabhupāda: That is not possible for ordinary man.
Hari-śauri: What, to simply induce people to chant?
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Hari-śauri: He only introduced just the chanting.
Prabhupāda: But who will chant? Wholl chant?
Satsvarūpa: But if they wont chant, then neither will they train up in
the varṇāśrama. Thats the easiest.
Prabhupāda: The chanting will be there, but you cannot expect that
people will chant like Caitanya Mahāprabhu. They cannot even chant
sixteen rounds. (And) these rascals are going to be Caitanya
Mahāprabhu.
Satsvarūpa: No. But if they at least will chant and take some
prasāda
Prabhupāda: Chanting will go on. That is not stopped. But at the
same time the varṇāśrama-dharma must be established to make the
way easy.
Hari-śauri: Well, at least my own understanding was that the
chanting was introduced in the age of Kali because varṇāśrama is
not possible.
Prabhupāda: Because it will cleanse the mind. Chanting will not
stop.
Hari-śauri: So therefore the chanting was introduced to replace all
of the systems of varṇāśrama and like that.
Prabhupāda: Yes, it can replace, but who is going to replace it?
The
People are not so advanced. If you imitate Haridāsa Ṭhākura
to chant, it is not possible.
Satsvarūpa: We tell them go on with your job but chant also.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Thākaha āpanāra kāje, Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura.
Āpanāra kāja ki. Caitanya Mahāprabhu recommended, sthāne
sthitaḥ. And if they do not remain in the sthāna, then the sahajiyās
chanting will come. Just like the sahajiyās also have got the beads
and
, but they have got three dozen women. This kind of chanting
will go on. Just like our (name withheld). He was not fit for sannyāsa
but he was given sannyāsa. And five women he was attached, and he
disclosed. Therefore varṇāśrama-dharma is required. Simply show-
bottle will not do. So the varṇāśrama-dharma should be introduced
all over the world, and
Satsvarūpa: Introduced starting with ISKCON community?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriyas. There must be regular
education.
Hari-śauri: But in our community, if the
, being as were training up
as Vaiṣṇavas
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hari-śauri:
then how will we be able to make divisions in our
society?
Prabhupāda: Vaiṣṇava is not so easy. The varṇāśrama-dharma
should be established to become a Vaiṣṇava. It is not so easy to
become Vaiṣṇava.
Hari-śauri: No, its not a cheap thing.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore this should be made. Vaiṣṇava, to
become Vaiṣṇava, is not so easy. If Vaiṣṇava, to become Vaiṣṇava is
so easy, why so many fall down, fall down? It is not easy. The
sannyāsa is for the highest qualified brāhmaṇa. And simply by
dressing like a Vaiṣṇava, that is
fall down.
Hari-śauri: So the varṇāśrama system is like for the kaniṣṭhas,
Kaniṣṭha-adhikārī.
Prabhupāda: Kaniṣṭha?
Hari-śauri: When one is only on the platform of neophyte.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Kaniṣṭha-adhikārī, yes.
Hari-śauri: Varṇāśrama system is beneficial.
Prabhupāda: Kaniṣṭha-adhikārī means he must be a brāhmaṇa. That
is kaniṣṭha-adhikārī. The spiritual life, kaniṣṭha-adhikārī, means he
must be a qualified brāhmaṇa. That is kaniṣṭha. What is esteemed as
very high position in the material world, brāhmaṇa, that is kaniṣṭha-
adhikārī.
arcāyām eva haraye
pūjāṁ yaḥ śraddhayehate
na tad-bhakteṣu cānyeṣu
sa bhaktaḥ prākṛtaḥ smṛtaḥ
The brāhmaṇa means from the material stage gradually he is
elevated to the spiritual stage. And below the brāhmaṇa there is no
question of Vaiṣṇava.
Hari-śauri: No question of?
Prabhupāda: Vaiṣṇavism.
śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ
puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ
hṛdy antaḥ-stho hy abhadrāṇi
vidhunoti suhṛt satām
[Bhāg. 1.2.17]
By becoming a brāhmaṇa, hearing, hearing, hearing
Or by hearing,
hearing, hearing, he becomes a brāhmaṇa. The other qualities,
śūdra quality, kṣatriya, vaiśya, means finished. So then next stage is,
śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ, hṛdy antaḥ
Naṣṭa-prāyeṣv abhadreṣu. By this process, hearing
Without
becoming a brāhmaṇa nobody is interested to hear. Then, by
hearing, naṣṭa-prāyeṣv abhadreṣu, then abhadra, means the base
qualities, means ignorance and passion
These are the base
qualities. So naṣṭa-prāyeṣv abhadreṣu. When these base qualities
are finished almost, not complete, nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā, by
hearing from Bhāgavata or by serving the spiritual master and Kṛṣṇa
consciousness movement
naṣṭa-prāyeṣv abhadreṣu
nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā
bhagavaty uttama-śloke
bhaktir bhavati naiṣṭhikī
[SB 1.2.18]
Then he becomes fixed up in devotional
This devotional service is
the first-grade quality of sattva-guṇa.
naṣṭa-prāyeṣv abhadreṣu
nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā
bhagavaty uttama-śloke
bhaktir bhavati naiṣṭhikī
[SB 1.2.18]
Tadā rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ [SB 1.2.19] When one is situated as a
devotee, then this base quality, rajas-tamaḥ, ignorance and passion,
the symptoms: kāma-lobhādayaś ca ye. Kāma, lusty desires, and
greediness. Sex desire, strong sex desire or satisfy the senses,
eating too much, lobha, greedinessthese things go. Nityaṁ
bhāgavata-sevayā bhagavaty uttama
When one is situated in
devotional service, tadā rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ. These are rajas-tamo
These are the symptoms of rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ. Tadā rajas-tamo-
bhāvāḥ kāma-lobhādayaś ca ye, ceta etair anāviddham [SB 1.2.19].
The mind is no more disturbed with all these things. Sthitaṁ sattve
prasīdati. Then he is to be understood
Hes in the sattva-guṇa.
That is perfect brahminical life. Then hell be pleased. Prasīdati. In
this way, gradual step
So it is very difficult to bring, introduce
varṇāśrama, but at least there must be some idea. Just like in the
university, nobody is going to study higher mathematics, higher
English literature. Nobody goes even in your country. The classes
are almost vacant. But still, the government does not close it. The
expenditure is high, but there is no student, no income. Therefore
the professors coming to us, Give us some student. You know that?
Satsvarūpa: Religion professors.
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, higher studies
Satsvarūpa: Yes. Send us some of your men.
Prabhupāda: Nobody is interested with higher study. They want
some technological understanding so that they can earn money.
Thats all. This is only interest.
Satsvarūpa: In our ISKCON, one becomes a brāhmaṇa after a year.
Its not very hard. Everyone becomes a brāhmaṇa.
Prabhupāda: That is due to chanting. That lift very easily.
Hari-śauri: Where will we introduce the varṇāśrama system, then?
Prabhupāda: In our society, amongst our members.
Hari-śauri: But then if everybodys being raised to the brahminical
platform
Prabhupāda: Not everybody. Why you are misunderstanding?
Varṇāśrama, not everybody brāhmaṇa.
Hari-śauri: No, but in our society practically everyone is being
raised to that platform. So then one might ask what is
Prabhupāda: That is
Everybody is being raised, but theyre falling
down.
Hari-śauri: So then we should make it more difficult to get
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hari-śauri:
brahminical initiation. After four or five years.
Prabhupāda: Not necessary. You remain as a kṣatriya. Youll be ha
Hari-śauri: No need for even any brāhmaṇa initiation, then
Prabhupāda: No, no.
Hari-śauri:
unless one is
Prabhupāda: No, brāhmaṇa must be there. Why do you say,
generalize?
Hari-śauri: Unless one is particularly
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hari-śauri:
inclined.
Prabhupāda: Not that a śūdra man is by force become a brāhmaṇa.
You cannot improve. That is not possible. But even if he remains a
śūdra and does accordingly, he will get the same position as
devotee. Sva-karmaṇā tam abhyarcya sam
Hell get the perfection.
At the present moment the idea is: if one remains a śūdra, then he
cannot get perfection. No. Even a śūdra can get perfection provided
he does the work of a śūdra perfectly.
Hari-śauri: For Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Therefore why a śūdra artificially should be a
brāhmaṇa? Let them, let him remain a śūdra, and if he follows
strictly the rules and regulation of śūdra, hell also be as good as a
brāhmaṇa. The same example: Just like head is as important as my
leg. It is not that because it is leg, it is less important than my head.
And if you ask the head, Do the work of a leg, it is impossible. And
if you ask the leg to work as a brain, that is impossible. Let him
remain brain, let him remain leg, and do your duty and you become
perfect.
Satsvarūpa: Today youve been saying that the Vaiṣṇava is the
highest, above the brāhmaṇa. But then weve also understood that
everyone in ISKCON is a Vaiṣṇava.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Vaiṣṇava everyone, even if hes not brāhmaṇa.
Jīvera svarūpa haya nitya-kṛṣṇa-dāsa [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109]. But
you have to gradually bring him to that pure consciousness that I
am servant of Kṛṣṇa. Here the bodily conception is going on, I am
American, I am Indian, I am this, I am that.
Satsvarūpa: If in our society we say, Śrīla Prabhupāda wants some to
be śūdra
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. I dont want. I want everyone to become
Vaiṣṇava. But because hes a śūdra, it is not possible to bring him
immediately to the platform of brāhmaṇa, or Vaiṣṇava. Therefore
falling down. Therefore system must be. But even if he remains a
śūdra, hes a Vaiṣṇava.
Hari-śauri: So wed have to completely revise the whole system that
we have now.
Prabhupāda: No. Whatever we have, that is all right. But we see by
experience that theyre falling down. There must be systematic. Why
falling down? Because he was not fit for the position, therefore he
has fallen. Better remain in his position and become perfect. Why
artificially bring them? There is no need. Kṛṣṇa says. Bring that
Bhagavad-gītā. Sve sve karmaṇy abhirataḥ?
Hari-śauri:
sve sve karmaṇy abhirataḥ
saṁsiddhiṁ labhate naraḥ
sva-karma-nirataḥ siddhiṁ
yathā vindati tac chṛṇu
By following his qualities of work, every man can become perfect.
Now please hear from Me how this can be done.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He is śūdra, clerk. He can
As a śūdra, he can get
the perfection. Why he should artificially become a brāhmaṇa and
sannyāsī and fall down? This has to be checked.
Hari-śauri: So that depends upon our men who are giving
recommendations.
Prabhupāda: So that recommendation is not good. Bible is giving so
many recommendation. Hes also not following them. (laughs)
Hari-śauri: Following them. So how will we implement? Right now
we have
Every temple president can
Prabhupāda: That is supposed. Where there is no tree, a castor seed
tree is very big tree. That is going on.
Satsvarūpa: If theres no tree?
Prabhupāda: You know castor seed tree, a plant? it does not grow.
Satsvarūpa: Small.
Prabhupāda: Small. So there is no banyan tree. It is takenOh, it is
very big.
Hari-śauri: I dont follow the analogy.
Satsvarūpa: In the complete absence of trees, then a small tree is
considered big.
Hari-śauri: Oh. (laughs) Well, say, like here in Māyāpura now we
have a situation
Prabhupāda: No, no. Why? Why one should stress to become big
tree? Here it is clearly said even if you are small tree, you can get
perfection. So we should take that.
Hari-śauri: So in Māyāpura here now we have that situation, that so
many
Prabhupāda: Everywhere, wherever, Māyāpura or anywhere. Question
is that here it is clearly said, sve sve karmaṇy abhirataḥ. Brāhmaṇa
has his duty, kṣatriya has his duty, vaiśya has his duty, śūdra has his
duty. And if he performs his duty nicely, then he also becomes
perfect. So why artificially he should be called a brāhmaṇa? Let them
do, according to śāstra, the work of śūdra, or vaiśya. Hell get the
perfect. Perfection is not checked. But why artificially he should be
made a brāhmaṇa or he should be made a sannyāsī and fall down
and become a ludicrous? That is the point. Better let him live in his
position and become perfect. Thats good. That looks very nice. And
that is possible. That is possible. Varṇāśramācāravatā puruṣeṇa
paraḥ pumān viṣṇur ārādhyate. Viṣṇu, Lord Viṣṇu, can be worshiped
if you perfectly follow the rules and regulation of four varṇas and
four āśramas. Here it is also said, sve sve karmaṇi. You work as a
perfect brāhmaṇa or a perfect kṣatriya, perfect śūdra; you get
perfection. The perfection is available in your natural life. Why
should artificially you become unnatural and fall down and become
ludicrous? Perfection is not checked.
Satsvarūpa: But in most of our temples, the duties are either Deity
worship, brāhmaṇa
Prabhupāda: Brāhmaṇas are available. Why you are bothering about
this? Brāhmaṇas are also available, śūdras are also available. Why
śūdra should be artificially become a brāhmaṇa?
Satsvarūpa: What will the śūdras do in the big city temple, in all the
temples?
Prabhupāda: Why you are bringing our temples? I am talking of the
principle.
Satsvarūpa: Oh.
Hari-śauri: The principle we follow. Were just thinking how it can be
implemented. You were saying that it should be started in our
society.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is a very broad idea. Now we are speaking of
some of them, training them. That is another thing. That is small
scale.
Hari-śauri: The principle were following.
Prabhupāda: Yes. In the
For the big scale, this is the required. In
big scale you cannot make all of them as brāhmaṇas or sannyāsīs.
No. That is not possible. This is a small scale. How many percentage
of people of the world we are controlling? Very insignificant. But if
you want to make the whole human society perfect, then this Kṛṣṇa
consciousness movement should be introduced according to the
Kṛṣṇas instruction, if you want to do it in a large scale for the
benefit of the whole human society. Now we are picking up some of
them, best. That is another thing. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu said
para-upakāra. Why a certain section should be picked up? The whole
mass of people will get the benefit of it. Then it is required,
systematic. Sve sve karmaṇy abhirataḥ saṁsiddhiṁ labhate naraḥ.
Para-upakāra means mass benefit, not there is certain section. Then
we have to introduce this varṇāśrama-dharma. It must be done
perfectly, and it is possible and people will be happy.
Satsvarūpa: It requires powerful influence in the society to
Prabhupāda: Yes. If the leaders of the society, they agree. They are
barking like dogs in the United Nation. They should take rightly the
instruction of Bhagavad-gītā. Then everything will be all right.
Theyre simply barking like dogs. What benefit is there? What benefit
people have derived from the United Nation? Nothing. So if they
want actually world peace, world unity, they must take the formula
given by Kṛṣṇa. That is our duty. Because we are preaching Kṛṣṇa
consciousness, so our duty is to convince that You are uselessly
wasting your time for unity, for benefit of the human
You take
this. Youll be happy. We are safe. We have taken to Kṛṣṇas lotus
feet shelter. There is no doubt. But
Just like Prahlāda Mahārāja. He
said that I am quite happy. I have no problem. But I am thinking of
these rascals. Tato vimūḍha-cetasa indriyārtha: They have made
the whole aim of life sense gratification. Indriyārtha. And for that
purpose, a few years, theyre making huge arrangement, how we
shall become happy? And next life a dog. It is risky. So as Kṛṣṇa
conscious men, we should try to save them. That is the duty. But this
civilization as it is going on is very risky. They do not know how
natures law is working, how hes going to be a dog next life. He
does not know. Mūḍho nābhijānāti. To save the mass people from
falling down to the repetition of birth and death, that is welfare
activity. To save them by Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we have to keep this
ideal at least, varṇāśrama, that Here is the position.
Hari-śauri: At this time should we try to introduce it in our centers
or not?
Prabhupāda: Always we shall try. Human society will be always
there. We have to serve them, para-upakāra. We have to keep them
in the right position.
Hari-śauri: I just remember two or three years ago there was a
thing
A pamphlet came out about introducing the varṇāśrama
system in the society, but actually nothing came of it.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That time was not right. Now you can do
something.
Satsvarūpa: That was the beginning of emphasis on farms when
Prabhupāda said that, when more and more farms start, the idea of
the vaiśya. But nothing else happened.
Prabhupāda: Every business is important. Brāhmaṇa business is
important, kṣatriya
Just like the body. Head is important; the arm
is important; the belly is important. They must be kept in order. Just
like I am in trouble because my belly is not working. Digesting
power is not good. So in spite of brain, hand, and leg, I am diseased.
If any part of the society remains diseased, the whole society will
suffer. Therefore they must be maintained in correct order. You
cannot say if there is some trouble in the leg, Neglect the leg. Take
care of the brain. No. Brain will be taxed due to the pain in the leg.
This is nature. Therefore everyone should be kept in order. Then
things will go on. That is varṇāśrama. They do not know that.
Sometimes they are giving stress
That communist is giving stress
to the śūdra class, and the capitalist are giving to the belly class.
And what about the head? What about the arms? And therefore
topsy-turvied. Everything is disorder. There are two classes of men
nowcapitalist and communist. The communist is giving stress,
No. Simply the legs shall be taken care. What is called? Proly?
Hari-śauri: Proletariat.
Prabhupāda: What is that proletariat?
Satsvarūpa: The laborers.
Prabhupāda: Thats all. These rascals are giving stress on the legs.
And the capitalists, they are giving stress on production. And where
is the kṣatriya and brāhmaṇa?
Hari-śauri: Well, theyre all giving stress to accumulation of
weapons. Theyre all giving stress to
Prabhupāda: That is not kṣatriyas business. That is
That is
No,
that is described. Kṛṣṇa said
He arranged the battlefield, because
the kṣatriyas, they became very powerful by individual military
strength as it is now
Hari-śauri: Accumulation.
Prabhupāda: Ha. So Kṛṣṇa arranged: All right, you come together
and finish yourselves. So this arrangement will be done that all
atomic bomb will come in warfieldone, next, third war, finished.
All these, all these demons will be finished. That is not kṣatriya. This
is demonic. Kṣatriyas business is to see that the four orders of life
are maintained properly, not increasing military strength only,
overburdened. Everyone is spending 75% of the revenue for military.
Huh? Paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām [Bg. 4.8]. So they
are demons. Why so much money should be spent for military? They
are not kṣatriyas. They are not kṣatriyas. They are demons. So
demons
As soon as there will be number of demons increased,
there will be war and finish all.
Hari-śauri: So at least if we successfully introduce the varṇāśrama
system in our own society, then when all the demons finish
themselves
Prabhupāda: At least
At least
At least they will see, This is the
ideal.
Hari-śauri: Yes. Then if there is a war after that, it will be all right.
Prabhupāda: At least ideal must be there. That we are doing.
Hari-śauri: This will more or less revolutionize the way were
running our centers. If we introduce it, it will more or less
revolutionize the way were running our centers.
Prabhupāda: Why? Why revolution?
Hari-śauri: Because right now our only emphasis is just to simply
produce brāhmaṇas.
Prabhupāda: So why you are taking we? Why not others? This is
kaniṣṭha-adhikārī. You are thinking of we. That is kaniṣṭha-
adhikārī. It is not that we. Na tad-bhakteṣu cānyeṣu. You have to
think for others also.
Satsvarūpa: But the people are not at our disposal to organize.
Hari-śauri: We are thinking of we because actually we only have
our own society at the moment to organize.
Satsvarūpa: We cannot approach the masses to organize.
Hari-śauri: It cant be implemented on such a big scale.
Prabhupāda: I do not follow what you say.
Satsvarūpa: Just like
Prabhupāda: Ideal. We are giving the ideal.
Satsvarūpa: But no ones listening and no ones taking it up except a
few
Prabhupāda: But you take. You show them.
Hari-śauri: Thats why we say, we.
Prabhupāda: That We said means not we are going to take them,
but we are simply giving the ideas. We are not going to be a śūdra.
But to show the
Just like you play in a drama. You are playing the
part of a king. You are not a king.
Hari-śauri: No.
Prabhupāda: So similarly, just to give them idea, we have to play like
that.
Hari-śauri: Well, again, thats
Prabhupāda: Not necessarily that we are going to be śūdra. So that
is it. That is the thing. We are servant of Kṛṣṇa. Thats all. And as
servant of Kṛṣṇa, we have to execute the order of Kṛṣṇa.
Satsvarūpa: So we can ideally organize ourselves and then for the
rest of the people all we can do is hope that theyll follow it.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Bhavānanda: Set the example.
Prabhupāda: Example. Just like Bhavānanda, when there was no
commode here. He was taking my stool and urine. Does it mean he
is a sweeper? Hes a sannyāsī Vaiṣṇava. Similarly, āpani ācari jīve
śikhāilā. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, I am not a sannyāsī. But He
took sannyāsa. Actually He is God, so what is the benefit of
becoming a sannyāsī, for God? But He became that. [break] In order
to serve the mass of people, to bring them to the ideal position, we
should try to introduce this varṇāśrama, not that we are going to be
candidates of varṇāśrama. It is not our business. But to teach them
how the world will be in peaceful position we have to introduce.
Now the days of wind will come from March.
Satsvarūpa: Winds begin?
Prabhupāda: And April this wind is
Satsvarūpa: Winds begin now?
Bhavānanda: Yes. Theyll start to come from the south. Vaikuṇṭha
breezes.
Prabhupāda: Now here is a very nice institution for the benefit of the
whole society human.
Bhavānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in our preaching in Bengal, many
times we come to villages and the people are very sincere. They say
that We have our village, but we need someone here to guide us.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Bhavānanda: If you could make one small little temple with Gaura-
Nitāi and have someone here to tell us what to do
They want to
become Kṛṣṇa conscious.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Bhavānanda: But theres no one there to guide them.
Prabhupāda: So you reply this, that You come. I shall train you. You
will guide. We are prepared to guide you, but it is not possible to,
bring men outside to guide you. You come to us. I shall train you
how to guide. This is the reply. And that is wanted. This Bon
Mahārāja failed. Why? He wanted
Guru Mahārāja wanted that you
start one temple in London. But he was thinking of bringing, taking
men from India. Actually he had no
. [break] That is the fact.
Therefore he failed. Instead of serving Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī, he
wanted to serve Vivekananda. To become like Vivekananda and I
shall be very much eulogized in my country, second Vivekananda.
That was his ambition. He never wished to defy Vivekananda and
elevate Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He has introduced in his Oriental
Institute, Gandhi philosophy, Vivekananda philosophy. Just see his
position. Hes appreciating
We are simply condemning Gandhi
philosophy, and hes appreciating Gandhi. We are simply
depreciating Vivekananda, and hes introducing Vivekananda. This is
his position. He cannot understand even that where is philosophy in
Vivekananda and Gandhi? Gandhi is nationalist. Again problem with
your finger. Twenty-four hours, finger problem or nose problem.
That I am observing. No attention. So where is philosophy in
Vivekananda or Gandhi? He was nationalist. Nationalist means
dehātma-buddhi. Dehātma-buddhi means sa eva go-kharaḥ [SB
10.84.13], cows and asses. He worked throughout his whole life for
Indian people. In Africa also, he wasted twenty years, and India,
thirty years. Fifty years. He lived for seventy-eight years. So twenty-
seven years was for his education or something like that and fifty
years wasted. This is his position. And hes a big man. Actually he
wasted fifty years. Twenty years in Durban and thirty years in
He
started in 1917, and svarāja was, independence was given to India in
47. He had nothing
It is not due to him. It is that Subash Boses
INA. So twenty years there, thirty yearsfifty years he wasted of his
life. And balance, twenty-seven, education, sex with wife and so on,
so on. He was so sexually inclined, he has written in his biography
that when his father was dying he was enjoying sex life with his
wife. Just see how he was sexually inclined. He could not take the
serious illness of his father. Hes going to die. He was enjoying his
wife. We can
Just from one point we can understand. Everyone is
sexual in young days. That is generally. But just see his position,
that his father was going to die and he was enjoying sex.
Satsvarūpa: I read that. They called him, so he stopped having sex
and went to the bedroom, but it was too late. His father was already
dead. So he must have been actually having sex just at the moment
his father died.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He has written. Not only that. Nowadays somebody
has accused that even in his old age he was having sex with young
girls. I do not know. But it is a fact, when he was coming in the
meeting he would touch two young girls, granddaughter and
granddaughter-in-law, and then come in the meeting. I have seen.
One gentleman in our, the Mullicks Thakur Badhi, when we were
there. He was attorney. So when there was some function, so all
neighboring men were invited. So he was also invited. He would
come with at least three, four prostitutes. And he was old man,
blind. Asutosh Bhan. He became very rich man by cunning lawyer.
He was a lawyer. So he would take a credit that When I go to a
friends house to keep my invitation, I take some three, four
prostitute and flatterer. Then
And hed be received very nicely. We
have seen when, when we were boys, ten years, twelve years old. I
have seen it. Formerly, in our fathers time, it was aristocratic to
keep one prostitute and keep one garden also. Then hell get
So
this man, dehātma-buddhi and sexually inclined, he is mahātmā.
This is the standard of
Ramakrishna, he was worshiping goddess
Kālī. It is condemned in the Bhagavad-gītā, kāmais tais tair hṛta-
jñānāḥ prapadyante nya-devatāḥ [Bg. 7.20], that Anyone who is
worshiping a demigod, he is lost of all sense. So this man, by losing
his all senses, worshiping a demigod, he became God. People do not
take reference from Bhagavad-gītā, that A demigod worshiper has
no sense, and he has become God? What kind of God? Senseless
God? And Gods definition is aiśvaryasya samagrasya vīryasya
yaśasaḥ śriyaḥ, jñāna. God means full in knowledge. And a man who
has no sense, he has become God? From logic. Jñāna-vairāgyayaś
caiva. God means he has got full knowledge. And this man is
senseless and he has become God. Logic, how you can defy? And
theyre accepting: Ramakrishna is God. How you defend it? I am
giving this logic. Defend.
Satsvarūpa: Ive given that argument, and people have said back,
Oh, he didnt say he was God. They say
He said that
Prabhupāda: No, you are advertising, Ramakrishna Avatara.
Bhagavan Ramakrishna. Bhagavan Ramakrishna. Everyone is
Godthen why you are after God? You remain. You are servant of
your wife, your prostitute. Then you are also devotee because
everyone is God. A prostitute-hunter is also devotee because hes
devoted to the prostitute and prostitute is God. Then why you search
out another God? Hm? Everyone is God. Why you search out another
God? Why you bring Ramakrishna God? Better remain satisfied with
your prostitute, your dog. (pausetalking in background) That Dr.
Sharma has given very good (indistinct)?
Satsvarūpa: Yes. Of all commentaries his is the best, including
Rāmānuja and Madhva.
Bhavānanda:
ye yathā māṁ prapadyante
tāṁs tathaiva bhajāmy aham
mama vartmānuvartante
manuṣyāḥ pārtha sarvaśaḥ
[Bg. 4.11]
Everyone follows My path in all respects. So even if I worship the
demigods, I am worshiping ultimately Bhagavān. Kṛṣṇa says,
Everyone follows my path in all respects.
Prabhupāda: That is not the meaning. The meaning is: Everyone is
searching after Me, but they, unless they come to Me, they will
search one after another position. What is the purport?
Bhavānanda: Everyone is searching for Kṛṣṇa in different aspects of
His manifestations. Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is
partially realized in His impersonal brahmajyoti effulgence and as
the all-pervading Supersoul dwelling within everything including the
particles of atoms. But Kṛṣṇa is only fully realized by His pure
devotees. Consequently Kṛṣṇa is the object of everyones realization
and thus anyone and everyone is satisfied according to ones desire
to have him. In the transcendental
Prabhupāda: Brahman
Brahman is also Kṛṣṇa, and Paramātmā is
also Kṛṣṇa. So if one is attached to Brahman, hes also worshiping
Kṛṣṇa. That is the meaning.
Satsvarūpa: Or even a demigod.
Prabhupāda: Demigod. Everyone is part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. But hes
searching after real Kṛṣṇa.
Bhavānanda: But what is the harm? Durgā, she is in charge of
She
is Kṛṣṇas agent, so what is the harm in worshiping Durgā?
Prabhupāda: Harm means you remain with Durgās province. Yānti
deva-vratā devān [Bg. 9.25] You cannot expect to go to Kṛṣṇas
place. You have to satisfy yourself and remain within this material
world. This is Durgās place.
Bhavānanda: Men in this world desire success in fruitive activities
and therefore they worship the demigods. Quickly, of course, men
get results from fruitive work in this world.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Bhavānanda: So if I can become happy by worshiping Durgā in this
material world
Prabhupāda: But that
That is māyā. Youll never be happy. You are
thinking like that. Who is in the material world happy? Nobodys
happy. But because you are fool, you are thinking this is happiness.
Hari-śauri: He says the results are only temporary, anyway.
Prabhupāda: Temporary but it is miserable also. But you are eternal.
Why you should be satisfied with temporary happiness? If you be
satisfied, be satisfied. That is your business. But that is not real
happiness. Why you should take repeated birth and death? If there is
another life where there is no birth and death, why should you not
take that? You are eternal. But because you are a fool, you think that
If I get ten thousand years of life and very comfortable life, that is
happiness. That is mistake. Kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ [Bg. 7.20].
That is also said. Why dont you refer to that
? Such persons have
lost that intelligence.
Satsvarūpa: Ive heard that Ramakrishna said that even if by mistake
one worships the wrong Deity, God wont hold that mistake against
him. Even though hes worshiping a demigod and he thinks thats
God, so thats a mistake, but God is not so
Prabhupāda: But the Ramakrishna rascal saying. Kṛṣṇa says, yānti
deva-vratā devān [Bg. 9.25]. If you worship demigod, you go to the
demigod. You can say
Satsvarūpa: God Himself says.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. We have not to take the instruction of a
man-made God. We have to take instruction of the real God.
Hari-śauri: The second half of that verse says that As they
surrender unto Me I reward accordingly, So its not that everybody
gets the same results.
Prabhupāda: Yes, accordingly, because nothing can happen without
Kṛṣṇas desire. Even if you want some benefit from the demigods,
that must be sanctioned by Kṛṣṇa. That is stated. Mayaiva vihitān hi
tān. Find out. Ye py anya-devatā. Ye py anya-devatā-bhaktāḥ.
[break]
Bhavānanda: They also say that everything
They accept everything
as part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Everything is part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa
and everyone has same qualities as Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: No, that is not the fact. That is rascaldom.
Bhavānanda: One drop of the ocean contains all the qualities of the
big ocean, the chemical components
Prabhupāda: Then all the qualities, not the quantity. Then how it can
be equal?
Bhavānanda: But absolute means that a part is also equal to the
whole.
Prabhupāda: Equal to the whole in quality, not in quantity.
Bhavānanda: Then in quantity means universal form.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.
Bhavānanda: Not Kṛṣṇa. Not Kṛṣṇa but universal form.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is
Kṛṣṇa is bigger than the universal form.
Kṛṣṇa assumed the universal form, not that universal form made
Kṛṣṇa.
Bhavānanda: No, but everyone taken together makes Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa
Arjuna wanted to see His universal form; then
Kṛṣṇa assumed. Then Kṛṣṇa is the origin of the universal form.
Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ
[Bg. 10.8] Even universal form is
coming from Kṛṣṇa. These rascals, they do not know.
Bhavānanda: Their philosophy is that everyone taken together forms
Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: That is their philosophy, but everything taken together
means that is a partial manifestation of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is still greater.
Bhavānanda: If Kṛṣṇa says that Everything material and spiritual is
coming from Me.
Prabhupāda:Coming from Me. Therefore He is greater than both
material
Bhavānanda: Does that mean Kṛṣṇa is beyond even spiritual?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hari-śauri:
ye py anya-devatā-bhaktā
yajante śraddhayānvitāḥ
te pi mām eva kaunteya
yajanty avidhi-pūrvakam
Prabhupāda: Next verse.
Hari-śauri:
ahaṁ hi sarva-yajñānāṁ
bhoktā ca prabhur eva ca
na tu mām abhijānanti
tattvenātaś cyavanti te
I am the only enjoyer and the only object of sacrifice. Those who do
not recognize my true transcendental nature fall down.
Prabhupāda: Hm. Next verse.
Hari-śauri:
yānti deva-vratā devān
pitṝn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ
bhūtāni yānti bhūtejyā
yānti mad-yājino pi mām
[Bg. 9.25]
Prabhupāda: There is discrimination, yānti mad-yājino mām, not
that everyone. Another verse
Antavat tu phalaṁ teṣāṁ tad bhavaty
alpa
Hari-śauri:
antavat tu phalaṁ teṣāṁ
tad bhavaty alpa-medhasām
devān deva-yajo yānti
mad-bhaktā yānti mām api
Men of small intelligence worship the demigods, and their fruits are
limited and temporary. Those who worship the demigods go to the
planets of the demigods, but my devotees ultimately reach My
supreme planet.
Prabhupāda: That is the
Bhavānanda: Then how yato mata tato patha, became so strong?
Prabhupāda: This is rascal. Therefore we say they are rascal. Path is
one: mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja, and they have manufactured this,
yato mata tato patha. Mata is one. Food has to be given to the
mouth, not to the eyes. You can say, Here is a hole, here is a hole.
Here is a
Anybody
No. This hole. There are nine holes all over
the body. You cannot put food in either of them, only this one. You
cannot water every part of the tree. Put water on the root, and
everything is satisfied.
Bhavānanda: I am not qualified to worship Kṛṣṇa, so let me just
worship the Mother. She is part of Kṛṣṇa, so let me just worship
her
Prabhupāda: Youll get the path of yānti deva. You go to Mother and
become a goat and be sacrificed. You cut throat of a goat now by
satisfying Mother, and next life the goat will cut throat, yours. Go to
mother. Thats all. If you like, you can go. And if you think that is
goodby worshiping Mother, I am getting daily nice goat flesh. Why
shall I go to Kṛṣṇa? Thats all right, but be prepared, that so many
times youll be also cut, your head, and this goat will get chance to
cut your head. Mother is witness. Mother is for the goat and for you
also. So you are cutting the throat of the goat, so why the Mother
will not give the chance to the goat to cut your head? Why do you
think like that, rascal? The Mother is kind to me and unkind to the
goat? That means naṣṭa-buddhi, lost intelligence. If you think
Mother, then you must think that Mother of the goat also. Why
Mother will tolerate? This is justice. Actually the mantra is there, that
Goat, you are sacrificing your life. You get immediately chance of
human being. That is his profit. He would have evolved himself in
so many lives and then get a human life. But because hes
sacrificing his life before Mother, he gets immediately an lift to
become a human man. And the human, because he becomes, he has
got the right to cut the throat of the man who sacrificed him. This is
the mantra. So if you take this risk, do that because how to become
a goat, how to become a man, that is in the hands of Mother. That is
not in your hand. So Mother, if she gives lift to the goat to become a
man and if she degrades you to become a goat, that is in the
Mothers hand. You cannot check it. Prakṛteḥ kriyamā
Mother is
just to everyone. All right, this man is cutting your throat. You just
become human being and cut his throat. I shall make him a goat.
How you can say, No? Can you say? And Mother is all-powerful.
Then you take the risk. And why Mother will make injustice? The
poor goat, you shall cut the throat, and you remain human being,
Mothers pet son? What is this logic? She is Mother means she is
equal to every son. The goat is also her son; you are also her son. So
you are taking advantage of this poor goat, and now hell get this
advantage. You, you become a goat. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ
karmāṇi [Bg. 3.27] When you are being made into a goat, you
cannot check it. That is in the hand of mother. Then what is your
answer? Will you take that risk?
Bhavānanda: Not if Im intelligent.
Prabhupāda: (chuckling) Therefore anyone who worships the other
demigod, they are hṛta-jñānāḥ, there is no sense.
Hari-śauri: Alpa-medhasa.
Prabhupāda: Less intelligent. Yānti deva-vratā devān [Bg. 9.25]. You
will remain within this material world. That is Mothers kingdom.
This external world is controlled by the Mother Durgā. Shes in
charge of this material world. So if you become a perfect devotee of
Mother, you get all good chances in this material world but not
eternal life. Within this material world wherever you go everything is
limited, either you become Indra or Brahmā, or ant. Just like
President Nixon, so long he was President he was doing everything
as he liked, and now hes an ordinary man, (indistinct). This is
Mothers kingdom. Is that Mr. Nixon the same Nixon when he was
President? But same Nixon is he, but the atmosphere and the
circumstance is the same? Does he not realize it? How I was
enjoying as President and what is my position. Everyone kicks on my
face. Is that very good position? Therefore alpa. Antavat tu phalaṁ
teṣāṁ tad bhavaty alpa-medhasām. Antavat tu phalam. This
position ultimately will be ended. Therefore less intelligent class are
after this, not very intelligent men. What is time?
Hari-śauri: Twenty to eleven. (end)
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